Hey.

After upgrading to 5.2, programs (e.g. gnome-terminal) that
previously still used window decorations from my configured
theme ("TraditionalOk") no longer uses those.

At first I thought cinnamon made them somehow use ugly CSDs
but it just seems that what previously was configured as
"Window borders" is no longer there.


What's used now seems pretty inferior, e.g. one can barely
distinguish which window has the focus, since both colours
are some rather similar grey, while previousl I had blue
for focus, and grey for non-focus.

Could this possibly be fixed?

Thanks,
Chris.

Il 15/08/2022 02:35, Christoph Anton Mitterer ha scritto:
Hi, cinnamon 5.4 had a big muffin rebase after over 10 years, this help
performance and support of new features/technologies, wayland will need
works in other components and probably also another mutter rebase for
better support anyway major of other things should be ok

I waited long time before migrate from experimental to unstable so
upstream have solved many bugs

about windows decoration is one of the things changed in newer mutter
and now is managed by gtk3 theme chosen, this probably can help you:
https://github.com/linuxmint/cinnamon/issues/10848

so is probably something that should be added/changed in the theme, if
instead there are bugs related to muffin/cinnamon itself try to see on
open issues on muffin and cinnamon github and link it here if you found
one or more related

Hey Fabio.

Uagh... I mean I can understand that one wants to sort out old
technologies (metacity)... and needs new stuff (wayland)...

But I can also quite understand the criticism from the reporter of the
issue you've mentioned below.

Seems quite some time since cinnamon got real new power features and
detailed ways to customise the DE.
Now it looses the theming, or at least some important parts of it.
Feels a bit like the unfortunate GNOME way.

I'll see whether I can make it more usable via the CSS thingy proposed
there.

But with the default theme that we have now, the window title filed
seems unnecessarily big[0], and the colours for focused/non-focused
also seem to be rather problematic.

Are you going to adapt something for that in the default theme shipped
by Debian?
Or perhaps package some further themes for more choice?

In principle I'd like to see back the option to select which buttons I
see in the window title (like disabling the left icon that appears now
in the new version and opens the context menu, or re-ordering the
minimiz/maximize/etc. buttons on the right)...
... but upstream doesn't seem to be too open for such feature requests
(or actually one should call it regressions, since it worked
previously).


Thanks btw. for your maintenance efforts.


Cheers,
Chris.

Il 15/08/2022 18:01, Christoph Anton Mitterer ha scritto:

About the themes I already asked suggestions in mailing list, joshua had
suggested to put the cinnamon theme by default and i think it would be
good, if there are problems in that too they should be reported on
cinnamon github and i suppose they would be solved as i have seen others
recently too

about packages (https://github.com/linuxmint/mint-themes) I also asked
but the suggestion was to not do, but if some users require it I can do
it (as additional and not default)

about ordering of minimize/maximize etc if I not wrong was not related
to muffin rebase but was done previously (I don't remember for sure)

some settings was fixed/readded already, also many changes was done in
muffin after rebase (even if will cause require many more time for
future rebases) unfortunately more developers would be needed (even
occasional contributors), they are few and they must also manage the
forks of many programs (in https://github.com/linuxmint/ I mean)
unfortunately :(

I think it would be great be able to bring many add/changes to upstream
of the forked software (as long as they accept them) and possibly also
optional feature (even if they were only or almost used by cinnamon,
mate or other forks) but I fear that this will be difficult :(

I also think would be great have on many softwares 2 "type of graphic"
(one default for gnome and one "traditional" for cinnamon mate and
others DE) for avoid many fork and waste of time (for developers) and
have higher quality of softwares but I fear this it would be unlikely to
happen

Hey Fabio.

I just gave the current versions another try... and still, the enforced
CSD is outright ugly ^^
OTH, I probably cannot run on the old versions forever... so:
force-locked when people complained too loud about the lost features
and the new theming.


Right now I'd see a ton of minor nuisances and some real "showstoppers"
(with respect to usability of a desktop environment).



Nuisances:

- The taller window title bar because of the CSDs.
  Sure it's only a few pixels, but that adds up and uselessly wastes
  space.
  And for e.g. gnome-terminal, with some typical screen resolution and
  32px panel, when the terminal was maximised, the terminal lines just
  perfectly divided the remaining space. Now there's some extra bit
  wasted.
- The CSD window title bar sizes don't even match amongst each other.
  E.g. the one from Evolution is a bit taller, the one from gnome-
  terminal a bit smaller.
- Shade/unshade doesn't seem to work anymore.
  From the window title bar context menu, it's no longer changeable at
  all.
  And the keyboard shortcut ("Toggle shaded state") no longer works
  properly. For me it does shade a window, but unshade simply doesn't
  happen anymore.
- Previously, when moving the mouse pointer to the top right corner 
  (assuming there was no top panel), then one was sure that a click at
  that position, would hit the close button of any maximised window.
  This was really quite nice, cause in practise one often works with
  maximised windows, and a fast move in the top right corner needs no
  exact positioning but enables one to quickly close a window.
  Now, the close button is much farther inwards and so one needs to
  exactly position the pointer on it, which takes noticeably longer.


Showstoppers, these seem small, but in day2day work they're really a
pain in the a***:
- There's barely any difference in colour between the window title bar
  of those which have the focus and those which have not. The one is
  some gray, the other some slightly brighter gray.
  Having e.g. multiple terminals open, makes it really hard to see
  which one has the focus, and I really don't want to pull out my
  colour spectrograph for that ;-)
- Windows no longer seem to have a borderline at all.
  This is especially annoying when one has e.g. multiple overlapping
  windows, and one has a hard time following lines in order find out to
  which window some part of them actually belongs.
  Just place a number of terminal windows in overlapping positions -
  without the border, it's much more difficult to see straight, which
  characters belong to which terminal.


Also, but possibly non-issues:
- the font seems to be different... not 100% sure about that one, maybe
  it's just misconception, but it seems somewhat slimmer



Previously existing issues:
- Similar to the colour of focused/unfocused window title bars, there's
  barely no difference in colour of the same for the panel's window
  list.
  The focused window is just slightly brighter and that even with a
  gradient.
- This used to work long ago, but stopped already previously:
  When I have e.g. a terminal window maximised, and move the mouse,
  pointer to the far left, click and select (i.e. I want to select
  whole lines), than this doesn't work.
  It seems like the left/rightmost pixel of the maximised window are
  not counted as part of that... and one has to move the pointer a tiny
  bit inwards in order to be able to select.


Not sure how especially the "showstoppers" could be fixed... I'd be
really surprised if others don't have problems with those changes... or
maybe after years of GNOMEing, they simply resigned.

I mean ten years ago, one could easily change themes, set custom
shortcuts in programs, etc. pp. ... and now one has less
customisability with every generation.

I found:
https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/gnome-40-edit-theme.html

But haven't really tried yet... especially it seems hard to find out
*which* settings one has to actually change to get reasonable window
title bar colours... or window borders back - without breaking
everything else.

Well I'm not so sure if does any good if Cinnamon people follow GNOME -
don't get me wrong: there are certainly people who like the GNOME-way,
which is totally fine. But there are just as many who absolutely cannot
work with it (and have good reasons for it).. and Cinnamon started
because of just that.
And now it seems as if they'd follow similar paths.


Cheers,
Chris.

Il 27/10/2022 00:12, Christoph Anton Mitterer ha scritto:

I am aware that some changes made can be seen "as a worsening", then
there are still some bugs that are slowly solving, it seems they are
also preparing a new 5.4.x with some fixes:
https://github.com/linuxmint/cinnamon/commits/5.4-maintenance

any problems (both bugs/unexpected events and possible
improvements/feature requests) should be reported upstream properly and
constructively (and hope that the github issue(s) started will not be
filled with criticism of others people or will be closed it if it
becomes counterproductive)

I unfortunately don't have much time to contribute significantly
upstream beyond packaging

regarding the choice of themes I started to package mint-theme for
debian to have it optionally installable in a simple and fast way,
mint-y-icons is in the repo now, while unfortunately I got stuck from
copyright issues with mint-x-icons:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-mentors/2022/10/msg00141.html
https://github.com/linuxmint/mint-x-icons/issues/198

and for the choice of some other themes not working I saw
https://github.com/linuxmint/cinnamon/commit/c97f0a582a755e820f0a260fadd2536f0bd23eab
that will be applied in the next bugfix version

also unfortunately a few weeks ago I was also sick with covid and even
if I recovered in the last few weeks I am still not in good shape and I
struggle even more to contribute

Dear Maintainer,

*** Reporter, please consider answering these questions, where appropriate ***

   * What led up to the situation?
   * What exactly did you do (or not do) that was effective (or
     ineffective)?
   * What was the outcome of this action?
   * What outcome did you expect instead?

*** End of the template - remove these template lines ***