Thonny now has a Ukraine flag in its main UI, linking to a GitHub page about the Russian invasion. This is problematic for two reasons: * Thonny is used for education, and education should, inherently, be free of political views, if not related to the subject of the course * GitHub invades on user privacy, and the main UI should not drop users into a browser leading to a privacy-invading web platform (The second point is even worse for the Python Tutor linked from the menu, which is a shitload of tracking and advertising; will be reported separately.) The Ukraine button should be removed (even though I personally agree with the linked content. This issue is a blocker for using Thonny for its original purpose, and the context of the target group of its packaging team. Cheers, NIk - -- System Information: Debian Release: 12.0 APT prefers unstable APT policy: (500, 'unstable') Architecture: amd64 (x86_64) Kernel: Linux 6.1.0-6-amd64 (SMP w/20 CPU threads; PREEMPT) Locale: LANG=C.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8), LANGUAGE not set Shell: /bin/sh linked to /usr/bin/dash Init: systemd (via /run/systemd/system) LSM: AppArmor: enabled Versions of packages thonny depends on: ii mypy 1.0.1-1 ii pylint 2.16.2-2 ii python3 3.11.2-1+b1 ii python3-asttokens 2.2.1-1 ii python3-docutils 0.19+dfsg-6 ii python3-jedi 0.18.2-1 ii python3-mypy 1.0.1-1 ii python3-pip 23.0.1+dfsg-1 ii python3-pkg-resources 66.1.1-1 ii python3-send2trash 1.8.1~b0-2 ii python3-serial 3.5-1.1 ii python3-tk 3.11.2-2 ii python3-venv 3.11.2-1+b1 ii python3-wheel 0.38.4-2 Versions of packages thonny recommends: ii xsel 1.2.0+git9bfc13d.20180109-4 ii zenity 3.44.0-1 Versions of packages thonny suggests: ii python3-distro 1.8.0-1 - -- no debconf information -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iMAEARYKAGgWIQSk6zxRYJYchegBkTEK5VTlRg4b3QUCZE1EjzEaaHR0cHM6Ly93 d3cuZG9taW5pay1nZW9yZ2UuZGUvZ3BnLXBvbGljeS50eHQuYXNjGBxuYXR1cmVz aGFkb3dAZGViaWFuLm9yZwAKCRAK5VTlRg4b3W4iAQCDRLgBVM6VDoiHrs1KOhmb CItExlVFSHIILuWryqqZFAD9EHQLnjEttKONGgDJw84mhOnmxUn9yqh11AlSlH2l eQk= =tOF6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Dear Maintainer, The "Support Ukraine" button in Thonny violates the Debian Code of Conduct by embedding politically charged content within a technical package. Debian prioritizes neutrality and aims to provide a collaborative, inclusive environment free from political endorsements. This content risks dividing users and distracts from the technical focus of the Debian ecosystem. Please remove the "Support Ukraine" button from Thonny as soon as possible in the Debian-hosted code. If this is not feasible, it is requested to remove the Thonny package from the Debian repository altogether. The inclusion of such political content is not aligned with Debian's principles.
Which part of the Code of Conduct, specifically, does this violate? I don't remember writing any part of the Code of Conduct forbidding political messages. While I would agree that Debian aims to provide a collaborative and inclusive environment, I would not agree that we "prioritize" neutrality, and/or that being "free from political endorsements" is part of our official policies. Moreover, it could be said that expressing your political opinions as part of your work might be considered to be part of an "inclusive" environment. I'm not making any statement as to whether this request to remove a political statement is warranted. It may be; it may not be. But please let's not invent policies that do not exist to in an attempt to excert undue pressure. Thanks.
Hi w@uter, Thanks for your reply. While their political statement does not directly violate any parts of Code of Conduct, I feel that it is not aligned with it at all. It's not open and not meant to help collaboration (CoC points 3 and 5), it is meant to divide and separate instead. Is it not made in good faith (point 2). I assumed good faith (point 2) when installing a package, but that faith failed me, because what I received was a country flag banner with a politically charged message behind it. While their intent might have been genuine, the inclusion of such content in a package aimed at children (among other groups) could be seen as not displaying good faith toward the broader and culturally diverse Debian user base. Especially in software meant for education, this type of messaging risks alienating users who may not share the same views or prefer to keep politics separate from technical tools.
That's not what those two parts of the code of conduct are meant to say. "be open" means "do not say things behind people's backs". This is not that. The request to collaborate is about making it easier for people to work with you on software. It is not about other subjects. This is also not that. I do not see how? It is a polite request to donate for a cause. If you do not want that, then you can ignore the request. There is no obligation, so I do not see how it can possibly divide and separate. The only places where the code of conduct mentions "good faith", is where it says that you should *assume* good faith. I would like to point out that by that very statement, you have just clearly missed that ball. Of course, assuming good faith only works if everyone agrees to also act in good faith. When it is clear that acts are performed in bad faith, then the assumption is obviously flawed and we should not make it anymore. But this is, again, not that. message. After all, the oppressive Russian regime has made it a crime to even speak up against the Russian government these days, and so they could be at risk of being imprisoned by using this software. Almost anyone else, however, can see this message for what it is: a polite request to donate to a good cause. One may believe that the request is inappropriate, but that does not make it a violation of the code of conduct. An example of a very similar situation is vim: for decades, running "vim" with no arguments has presented the user with, amongst other things, a request to donate to the ICCF to help needy children in Uganda. While what vim does is less visible than the ukrainian flag on thonny's tool bar, the concept is the same. We have never considered this a problem, and I don't think we should. Free software is inherently a political action, and so it is not at all unusual to see political statements. In and of itself, that is not a violation of the code of conduct -- if it were, then making Debian would be a violation, and that obviously fails the ridiculousness test. Although I wouldn't consider thonny a tool that is meant *only* for education, I can understand a desire to hide the button in educational environments, and so perhaps a run time configuration option to hide that button could be appropriate, if upstream can be convinced that this is a good idea. That option could then default to leave the button there but it could be disabled where appropriate. The final group of people who do not fall within the above two groups, and who for obvious reasons also would not like to see this message, is "Russian government employees charged with trolling the Internet to support Russia's message". If this is you, then please do the world a massive favour and quit. Today. There are better uses of your time.
I agree that the Debian Code of Conduct is not violated by this content. On top of that, if you're trying to remain politically neutral, the best thing you can do is not even *touch* politically-charged parts of applications, because in so doing you may be taking a stand *against* whatever the application was originally pushing. Shipping an application as provided isn't going to make reasonable people mad even if the application has content you disagree with. Shipping a modified version of an application that has some particular messaging torn out is much more likely to make reasonable people upset. There's other politically and religiously charged content in Debian (apt-cache show anarchism), and I personally use at least one application (Xiphos) that is religion-centric. We don't strip out bits of those packages for non-technical reasons. If a particular user or community of users finds the message in Thonny's main UI offensive, they are more than welcome to strip it out themselves. Debian provides all the tools needed for the end-user to repackage the application.
Hi w@uter, Thanks for your reply. "I can understand why Russian nationals might want to not see this message. After all, the oppressive Russian regime has made it a crime to even speak up against the Russian government these days, and so they could be at risk of being imprisoned by using this software." You should try to understand why anyone, anywhere, might not want to see this message. I am not Russian nor do I live in affected regions, or even Eastern Europe. But I feel that any sort of pressurizing political statement, of any sort, has no space in open source software development, at all. Code is apolitical by nature. However, even if your opinions may be different from mine, and you are entitled to them. I voiced my concerns, you commented on them. I hope more people will think on the issue after reading our conversation. Meanwhile, I will continue to refuse Thonny software, I happily uninstalled it, because there's more software without political statements I can use. Kind regards
Nice try, but a miss. I had a good laugh at your idea though, thanks. Maybe it is you who should not take this too personally, and accept an idea that normal people may not like Ukraine/Russia war banners in their everyday software. If you like these things, then have fun without me.