#1059805 clucene-core: please apply LibreOffice patch to alllow not writing random timestamps into generated files, making them unreproducible #1059805
- Package:
- src:clucene-core
- Source:
- src:clucene-core
- Submitter:
- Rene Engelhard
- Date:
- 2026-06-13 10:07:02 UTC
- Severity:
- normal
- Tags:
Dear Maintainer, LibreOffice created a patch to clucene to make their help pages reproducible. Maybe we should include it here? (libreoffice in Debian uses the system library instead of the embedded copy.) See https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/patch/?id=ff071078ee5f13f0e9d430d6783444a631d232a0 (clucene-reprobuild.patch.1) which adds a new method setting the "start position" (which then is used in libreoffice to consistently set it 0) Regards, Rene
Source: clucene-core Followup-For: Bug #1059805 X-Debbugs-Cc: rene@debian.org, thorsten.behrens@allotropia.de additional API function to implements this when _not_ configured[1] to use the system-provided clucene. And so a question: could the fix be achieved by changing the default value of the version field from millis-timestamp to zero -- meaning: without needing to adjust the API? FWIW: I think Debian should avoid carrying an API that is divergent to upstream, even if the current upstream is no-longer-maintained. Otherwise people may unintentionally write software that works on Debian but that does not build/run on other platforms. [1] - https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/tree/helpcompiler/source/HelpIndexer.cxx?id=ff071078ee5f13f0e9d430d6783444a631d232a0#n109
Hi, Am 03.01.24 um 16:47 schrieb James Addison: I know. :) That is not really a reason, though. I am happy to patch it to make it work (and build-depend on a matching clucene-core). AFAICS this doesn't require a runtime dependency here since it writes some other value to a field at generation time, which is read anyway in the unpatched version even. Actually back then when Thorsten proposed it first I said "please make it a configure check"... Regards, Rene
James Addison wrote: Note that we _only_ need this during build time (so another option would be using the custom clucene during build, but still link the system clucene for runtime). I simply don't know enough about the motivations to have this pseudo-random value there in the first place, to opine on whether the default can/should be changed... Cheers,
There's a thread at LUENE-3606 (ref[0]) that seems relevant, and I've included a few notes below from scouring through some git history. Notes: This timestamping was introduced[1] in Lucene 1.9RC1 back in Y2005 - the changelog entry[2] doesn't tell us much more, although we can imply that it was for a timing/refreshness related fix, because the change adds an isCurrent method (described as useful to check whether an IndexReader has an up-to-date object reference to an index/segment) and test coverage. There is a subsequent race-condition fixup[3]. At Lucene v4.x, the field returned to being a zero-initialized counter[4]. That change[5] was made for LUCENE-3672 (ref[6]). However: the clucene-core/2.3.3.4 package currently in Debian is currently based on Lucene v2.3.2 - so that's the version to maintain compatibility with. This[7] comment makes me think that resettng to zero isn't entirely unrealistic. [0] - https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LUCENE-3607 [1] - https://github.com/apache/lucene/commit/c636897dc4a8a333295792718548bb50e9ab87ec [2] - https://github.com/apache/lucene/commit/6455d1a1061f85c9ae7837967370b43bc1add4a1 [3] - https://github.com/apache/lucene/commit/9a9da2f7703ead41fd5f21f146d77aaddd4a76a0 [4] - https://github.com/apache/lucene/blob/30b22298bacb5238437864128bc9005d49d0d3ed/lucene/core/src/java/org/apache/lucene/index/SegmentInfos.java#L131-L132 [5] - https://github.com/apache/lucene/blob/30b22298bacb5238437864128bc9005d49d0d3ed/lucene/core/src/java/org/apache/lucene/index/SegmentInfos.java#L131-L132 [6] - https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LUCENE-3672 [7] - https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LUCENE-3607?focusedCommentId=13159392&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Acomment-tabpanel#comment-13159392
(with apologies for forgetting to cc Rene on my previous message) [ ... snip ... ] [ ... snip ... ] Squinting more at the test coverage, a hypothetical explanation I can think of is this: If two index writer processes were likely to recreate an index file near the same time, or in the presence of long-lived index reader processes, then with a zero-based counter, a reader could easily mistake two independently-created index segments (created with segment version zero) as being 'current'. I don't know for certain that this is the scenario that the timestamp is intended to mitigate against -- it's certainly also possible that Solr replication (noted elsewhere in the LUCENE-3607 JIRA thread) was just as important, or maybe moreso. However: libreoffice is, as I understand it, using this during one-time build processes, and does not require replication of those indexes. I think the safe middle-ground rather than resetting to zero during a reproducible build would be to use the value of SOURCE_DATE_EPOCH[1]. That should mean no API changes, and we're still using a timestamp, keeping us close to the current behaviour -- but in a more reproducible way. There's also a useful note in LUCENE-3607 that the selected segment merge algorithm in Lucene is relevant when attempting to build indexes reproducibly. Fortunately from a quick inspection, I think that clucene-core uses SerialMergeScheduler (non-concurrent, recommended for reproducibility) by default[2] already. [1] - https://reproducible-builds.org/docs/source-date-epoch/ [2] - https://sources.debian.org/src/clucene-core/2.3.3.4+dfsg-1.1/src/core/CLucene/index/IndexWriter.cpp/?hl=185#L185
[ ... snip ... ] The attached patch for clucene-core-2.3.3.4+dfsg-1.1 compiles and implements SOURCE_DATE_EPOCH time retrieval -- but only in the context of the segment info version fields. Running a help build with SOURCE_DATE_EPOCH=0 should, with this patch, be more-or-less equivalent to calling the proposed additional API method to reset the segment version to zero. The reason it doesn't override system time retrieval globally in the codebase is that RAMDirectory objects are initialized[1] using the system current time, and contain a while loop[2] that compares the lastmodified on those objects to the output of another, subsequent call to retrieve the system time -- so I thought it'd be sensible to avoid the risk of an infinite loop there (while ts1 == ts2). Please note: I haven't tested the patch yet, hence not adding a 'patch' tag to this bug yet - I'm building libreoffice locally after installing the patched+compiled clucene package, and will inspect the help indexes constructed by the build. Feedback / review / alternative approach suggestions are welcome. [1] - https://sources.debian.org/src/clucene-core/2.3.3.4%2Bdfsg-1.1/src/core/CLucene/store/RAMDirectory.cpp/#L45 [2] - https://sources.debian.org/src/clucene-core/2.3.3.4%2Bdfsg-1.1/src/core/CLucene/store/RAMDirectory.cpp/#L523
Followup-For: Bug #1059805 X-Debbugs-Cc: rene@debian.org, thb@libreoffice.org I'd underanticipated the build time requirements here (although I have read since then that 24h or so is not unexpected for a first build) - so I don't know if/when I'll get around to testing it properly. Is there another way I could go about confirming whether my patch could work for libreoffice, or to get some help doing that? (also note: I hadn't noticed that this bugthread already had the 'patch' tag applied)
PS: Reminded by a thread[1] on the RB mailing lists about potential issues with SOURCE_DATE_EPOCH reader code, and from reading the relevant strtoul(3) manual: the patch I provided lacks error-checking, and should be updated to follow the guidelines in the manual and RB best-practices. C isn't really my expertise but I'll rewrite the patch when I find time to add the relevant checks. [1] - https://lists.reproducible-builds.org/pipermail/rb-general/2024-January/003225.html
Dear Maintainer, Rene, Thorsten, I have to admit that I have not, and am not likely to, find the time or gain the necessary experience to properly develop and test an alternative to the libreoffice clucene-core patch[1]. As a result, I would like to add my support for proceeding with that original patch in Debian (ignoring my earlier concern about the fact that it adjusts the clucene ABI). In other words: unless someone gathers a sudden burst of enthusiasm to test my possibly-broken 'reproducible-output.patch' proposal[2], please ignore it and prefer the existing, known-working patch instead. Regards, James [1] - https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/patch/?id=ff071078ee5f13f0e9d430d6783444a631d232a0 [2] - https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1059805#35
Hi,
I'd like to propose some procedure for packages that appear to lack
active maintenance, but where no formal orphaning has taken place. Lets
have a look for instance at clucene-core:
1. High popcon[1]
2. Important rdepends like libreoffice-core
3. Maintainer was contacted in #879296, but there has been no response
recorded there; the last upload was nearly ten years ago
4. Uploader was asked about interest to become Maintainer four
years ago with no response[2]
5. Open bug with patch to solve reproducibly problem #1059805
requested by libreoffice maintainer with no progress since
nearly two years
6. Package was NMUed three times in a row (one 64-bit time_t,
others to fix RC bugs)
One possible solution to consider would be to move the package to Debian
Commons maintenance, host it in the Debian team on Salsa, and upload the
change with a delayed upload to allow objections. For the example above
I prepared this in
https://salsa.debian.org/debian/clucene-core
This example should simply give some evidence that we might need some
solution which does not block contributors to invest some time into
packages. While another NMU would address the immediate issue, it would
not improve the long-term maintenance situation of the package.
Since this is not the only example we have I would like to go beyond
this example and start a discussion about criteria under which a move to
Debian Commons maintenance could be proposed. (BTW, thanks a lot to
Paul for this suggestion which enabled me to have finally all my
packages team maintained.)
Possible criteria might include:
* no maintainer upload for N years (combined with unsuccessful contact
attempts)
* repeated NMUs
* unanswered contact attempts
* pending fixes from contributors
* importance of the package within Debian
Are these reasonable indicators, and are there others that should be
considered? The delayed upload would provide another opportunity for
any interested maintainer or uploader to object, participate, or take
over maintenance. The Debian Commons maintenance model is also easy to
reverse if an existing maintainer returns or another person volunteers
to take over primary responsibility for the package.
The goal is not to replace maintainers who are still interested in their
packages, but to provide a straightforward path to propose ongoing
maintenance when there is no active maintainer involvement.
Debian already has contributors willing to maintain such packages. The
question is how we can provide a clear and scalable path for those
contributors to assume ongoing responsibility when traditional
single-maintainer maintenance has effectively become inactive.
Kind regards
Andreas.
[1] https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=clucene-core
[2] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=879296#15
[3] https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=team%2Bdebian%40tracker.debian.org
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2026/05/msg00105.html
That's the important question needing to be answered. Everything else might be indicative, and probably these packages are important - but why is the process that we have not working? Is this an attempt of a workaround for the orphaning? Best, Chris PS: I think the time_t-64bit NMUs should not be counted for this purpose.
Hello Andreas, thank you very much for picking up this topic. I am just an upstream maintainer but also in high interest in the Debian packaging process and communication between Debian and upstream. Am 05.06.2026 14:30 schrieb Andreas Tille: Interesting. I was not aware of this option. This measures the timespan between "now" and the last upload. Would it be more meaningful to measure the time since the last upstream release that has not yet been uploaded? Alternativly, one could measure the time since the last merge request or patch that has not yet been incorporated into an upload. Kind regards Christian Buhtz
Hi, Le 5 juin 2026 14:30:35 GMT+02:00, Andreas Tille <tille@debian.org> a écrit : how would that be different from the existing package salvaging procedure already documented at [1][2] ? [1] <https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/pkgs.en.html#package-salvaging> [2] <https://wiki.debian.org/PackageSalvaging> Happy hacking, -- Aurélien
As a preface, I think the Cc list on these emails is horrible but I'm sure it's intentional so I'm not dropping anyone. [...] I still think that formally orphaning unmaintained but not formally orphaned packages is the best thing (when they can't/shouldn't be RMed) because it's the only thing that explicitly marks a package as orphaned, i.e. that nobody cares about it. Shoving them into Debian Commons is not better than shoving them into random teams as was done before: it still hides their status, adds some busywork and prevents them from being formally orphaned for some more years. *cough* I mean... Don't we have a mechanism where a specific really existing person can become a maintainer of an unmaintained but not formally orphaned package directly?
Are you asking about mass-orphaning via the MIA team or is there another process I've forgot about?
Hello Aurélien, Am 05.06.2026 15:25 schrieb Aurélien COUDERC: Sometimes there are packages where "uploaders" jumping in, doing the work and the DM only uploads the work of "uploaders" without much more. Such cases are IMHO not covered by the current salvaging process. Best, Christian
Quoting Aurélien COUDERC (2026-06-05 15:25:48) As I understand it, salvaging is a process to adopt a package, whereas this seems to be an interest in revoking a maintainer *without* adoption. - Jonas
...so orphaning + a QA upload... G'luck, Peter
Salvaging requires someone to become the maintainer.
Such cases also are likely irrelevant (hard to be sure when one needs to guess what do you mean by ""uploaders"" and "the DM").
There is no incomplete orphaning process, the package was not supposed to be orphaned. This bug (#879296) is a "remove from Uploaders"-type bug, it has been filed as a result of an MIA process in 2017. It only affects only one of the two uploaders recorded in d/control, so orphaning the package was not warranted when I filed this bug.
Hi Andrey,
Am Fri, Jun 05, 2026 at 06:34:02PM +0500 schrieb Andrey Rakhmatullin:
The CC list involves all people who posted to the two open bugs (+ MIA
team).
I personally see a difference between the QA team and Debian Commons, but
even if we assume for the sake of discussion that moving the package to
the QA team would be preferable in this particular case, what process
would you suggest to formally orphan the package under the current
circumstances?
For clucene-core we have a maintainer who has not uploaded in nearly ten
years, contact attempts that went unanswered, repeated NMUs, and pending
fixes from contributors. Yet, as far as I understand, there is currently
no established procedure that would allow the package to become formally
orphaned without active involvement from the maintainer.
This is exactly the gap I am trying to discuss. If we believes that such
packages should become formally orphaned rather than move to Debian
Commons, what is the practical path to achieve that?
That would be ITS. Any volunteer(s)? I think most of the work needed for
the next upload is already done. However, even if somebody steps forward,
that would only solve the problem for this particular package.
BTW, we had a somewhat similar situation with libasyncns[1]. At the time,
the my mail received neither comments about how such situations should be
handled nor any volunteer willing to take over maintenance. I eventually
experimented with an "Intent to Orphan" process[2].
In hindsight, I agree that starting such a process without first seeking
consensus on the procedure was not a good idea. The criticism I received
on that point was fair.
However, that experience also reinforced my impression that we currently
lack a generally accepted process for dealing with packages that appear
to have no active maintenance but are not formally orphaned. In the case
of libasyncns, the package has since been adopted (#1123614), which is a
good outcome. My takeaway is not that the specific process I used should
be adopted, but that we would benefit from agreeing on some process for
handling such cases.
Without a shared procedure, we seem to be left with discussing individual
packages one by one, while contributors willing to help have no clear path
forward.
Kind regards
Andreas.
[1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2025/06/msg00131.html
[2] https://bugs.debian.org/1107475#10
Sure. Discussing a process to orphan someone else's packages (which, even to my knowledge, was asked for multiple times as a better alternative to adhoc processes such as ITS hijacking) would be better IMO but that's not what you asked :) My personal opinion is that it should be similar to ITS in principle but with (much) tighter requirements for package eligibility and (not too much) longer timelines for the process. And with a thicker skin for the submitter. (restoring the context) you said there are volunteers, that's why I pointed to ITS. If there are no volunteers, that's a different matter than what you said.
Hi [No need to CC me, I already get this 3 times] Small comment. In my opinion, if you want to maintain it in Debian Commons, you are salvaging the package and should use the salvation process. Debian Commons is intended to declare weak ownership, which is something else than no ownership. If you are willing to stick your name to a package in uploaders at least, ITS should work for you already. If you don't, than Debian Commons shouldn't be part of your solution. Paul
Hi Paul,
Am Sat, Jun 06, 2026 at 11:06:40AM +0200 schrieb Paul Gevers:
Reduced the CC to relevant bugs + Maintainer + Uploader.
OK, you do not consider Debian Commons part of the solution, and I can
understand the argument that Debian Commons should only be used when at
least one person explicitly wants to take ongoing responsibility for the
package.
My reading of the current thread is that several people agree that
clucene-core appears to lack active maintenance, while there is less
agreement about the appropriate process to handle such packages. Since
the package does not seem to fit the usual MIA workflow, perhaps we
should discuss what criteria and procedure would be appropriate for
formal orphaning in such cases.
To solve this we need criteria for packages for which a formal orphaning
process may be initiated by a contributor and concluded by a QA upload.
I'd suggest the following criteria:
Mandatory criteria
------------------
* No maintainer upload for at least 5 years.
* At least two documented contact attempts over a period of at least 6
months with no response from the maintainer
* At least one non-trivial NMU has been required since the last
maintainer upload (no mass transitions and similar archive-wide
changes)
* No indication from the maintainer that they still intend to maintain
the package
* A contributor is willing to prepare the QA upload and document the
evidence.
Other indicators
----------------
These are not required but strengthen the case:
* Repeated (non-mass) NMUs
* RC bugs remaining unfixed for an extended period
* Patches pending without maintainer response
* Uploader(s) also unresponsive
If a package fulfills these criteria, I suggest the following process:
1. File an Intent to Orphan bug documenting why the package satisfies
the mandatory criteria.
2. Make sure to CC Maintainer and Uploaders when filing the bug.
3. Wait 21 days.
4. Upload to DELAYED/15 *and* CC debian-devel list when informing
Maintainer and Uploaders about the upload.
5. Any response from the Maintainer or member of the Uploaders list
indicating continued interest in the package immediately stops the
process. Substantial objections raised on debian-devel should also
result in cancellation of the upload until those objections have
been addressed.
(Motivation for DELAYED/15 is that there might be additional input
from debian-devel with good reasons to cancel the upload.)
The intent is not to replace the MIA process, but to provide a path for
cases where contributors believe a package lacks active maintenance and
no MIA process has been initiated.
If there appears to be support for such a procedure, I will file an MR
against developers-reference to document it.
Kind regards
Andreas.
* Andreas Tille <tille@debian.org> [260608 11:01]: I do not understand why clucene-core "does not seem to fit the usual MIA workflow", and I suspect that this is where others are also not following your logic. What I am reading from others in this thread is that the correct way forward with this package is to start the MIA process with the remaining uploader associated with this package. You seem to be saying that there should be a way to orphan a package without either involving the MIA team or getting the blessing of the maintainer, and my question is "Why?" If there is a maintainer or uploader who is not MIA, then discuss with that person options such as orphaning the package or moving it to Debian Commons or something else. If not, then follow the MIA process. If there are multiple maintainers, and none of them are responding to both collective and individual pings, start the MIA process, letting the MIA team know the specific package you are concerned about. I think all of your "criteria" constitute unnecessary bureaucracy for a problem that already has enough bureaucracy. ...Marvin
I feel like the answer is "I don't want to wait some more years". I think this framing is useful. And think the answer is: * In past several years the MIA team was reportedly nonexistent. * When someone sees a package that has been clearly unmaintained for years, a normal desire is to mark it as orphaned "now-ish" and not "in a year or several". It's replacing one kind of bureaucracy with another, simpler, one.
Maybe I should have asked what the intention of the plan here is in the first place. It seemed to me that the subject was packages that, to quote: | appear to lack | active maintenance, but where no formal orphaning has taken place So either they need orphaning or salvaging. I don't understand why we need yet another thing. Chris
Then I don't see why this discussion exists in the first place. Best, Chris
Hi Chris,
Am Wed, Jun 10, 2026 at 06:08:36PM +0200 schrieb Chris Hofstaedtler:
I think this discussion exists because we have packages that appear to
lack active maintenance, yet the existing processes have not resulted in
either orphaning, salvaging, or renewed maintenance.
My proposal is simply to add another option for volunteers who are
willing to document the situation and do the work needed to improve the
package's maintenance situation.
People who consider orphaning or salvaging sufficient can continue to
use those processes. Nobody would be forced to use the additional one.
What harm would such an additional, optional process actually cause?
Kind regards
Andreas.
So I think I understand where you are coming from, and I know you mean well :) But still, I am going to give a couple of answers to this question :) First and foremost, it will cause confusion. At the very least, it will be one more thing to think about when somebody looks at a package and considers their options to make it better: should they ask for it to be orphaned? Should they file an ITS? Or should they use the Debian Commons thing (that still needs to be clearly defined)? What are the differences, what are the pros and cons? For more inexperienced Debian contributors, especially those who have not been around long enough or simply have not followed the discussions over the past couple of years, this may be a lot of confusion :) Second, the additional process needs to be clearly defined first. And from what I'm seeing in this thread, and from the way I read the original Debian Commons thread (the one that started at https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2026/05/msg00105.html), I really am not quite certain *how* exactly taking over a package for Debian Commons differs from salvaging it and also adding Debian Commons as an uploader. I sincerely, truly don't understand that. (as noted elsewhere in this thread, including by himself, Paul Gevers's original idea is much closer to LowNMU that to the QA team) So... yeah. Confusion abounds :) G'luck, Peter
Oh, sorry, I forgot to reply to that. From what I'm reading here, the existing processes did not result in orphaning for one main reason, one reason that, in my mind, eclipses anything else: nobody actually decided to start an orphaning process :) Now, the reasons for that I cannot speculate about. G'luck, Peter
Hi Peter, Am Fri, Jun 12, 2026 at 01:04:58PM +0300 schrieb Peter Pentchev: I agree that introducing a new process requires a clear definition. In fact, one outcome of this thread for me was that Debian Commons and the orphaning discussion should be treated separately, which is why I changed the subject line in my follow-up mails[1]. Regarding the potential confusion, I am not yet convinced that the decision process would become significantly more complicated. As I see it, somebody who encounters a package that appears to lack active maintenance has a fairly simple set of choices: * If they want to take responsibility for the package themselves, they can use the existing salvaging/adoption mechanisms. * If they do not want to maintain the package themselves but are willing to investigate the situation, collect evidence and prepare the necessary QA upload, they could use the additional process I am proposing, together with the possible criteria discussed in [1]. In this case the volunteer takes responsibility for documenting why the proposed QA action is justified rather than merely asking others to investigate the package. * If they do not want to do either of these things, they can ask the MIA team to investigate. So I see the proposed process less as an alternative to salvaging and more as an option for people who are willing to help move a package towards a maintenance status that matches reality, but who do not want to become the maintainer themselves. Hope this helps clarifying the confusion Andreas. [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2026/06/msg00086.html
We believe that the bug you reported is fixed in the latest version of
clucene-core, which is due to be installed in the Debian FTP archive.
A summary of the changes between this version and the previous one is
attached.
Thank you for reporting the bug, which will now be closed. If you
have further comments please address them to 1059805@bugs.debian.org,
and the maintainer will reopen the bug report if appropriate.
Debian distribution maintenance software
pp.
Andreas Tille <tille@debian.org> (supplier of updated clucene-core package)
(This message was generated automatically at their request; if you
believe that there is a problem with it please contact the archive
administrators by mailing ftpmaster@ftp-master.debian.org)
Format: 1.8
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2026 08:40:27 +0200
Source: clucene-core
Architecture: source
Version: 2.3.3.4+dfsg-2
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian Commons <clucene-core@packages.debian.org>
Changed-By: Andreas Tille <tille@debian.org>
Closes: 879296 1059805 1139752 1139802
Changes:
clucene-core (2.3.3.4+dfsg-2) unstable; urgency=medium
.
* Team upload.
* Migrate package to Debian Commons
Closes: #879296, #1139752, #1139802
* Secure URI in Homepage
* Add watch file documenting that project is Untrackable
* d/copyright: DEP5
* debhelper-compat (= 13)
* Add CLuceneConfig.cmake to devel package
* Remove unused lintian-overrides
* Apply LibreOffice patch to allow not writing random timestamps into
generated files, making them unreproducible
Closes: #1059805
* Standards-Version: 4.7.4 (Removed Priority field)
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